Interviewing Edward Snowden
At the launch event of an alliance among privacy projects in crypto last year, I got to ask Snowden questions on behalf of builders in the privacy space
It’s taken me a whole year to get around to posting this. Who knew I was just waiting for AI tools like ChatGPT to emerge so they can do the summarizing work for me! =D
Below is a pretty good summary of the conversation from summarize.tech, with some light edits. If you want to watch the whole thing, the link is at the end of this post.
Overview
Edward Snowden is interviewed by Michelle Lai and Jarrad Hope. They discuss various topics related to privacy, security, and technology. He emphasizes the need to prioritize safety and privacy while pursuing technological missions, highlighting the exploitative nature of the system and encouraging the creation of secure and accountable networks.
Snowden also addresses the U.S. infrastructure bill and the move to sanction open source technology, expressing concerns about the potential risks and challenges ahead. Snowden also acknowledges the importance of the public demanding privacy from application developers, infrastructure providers, and elected officials. He highlights the significance of control and privacy, arguing that true privacy is achieved by leveraging anonymity and flattening power differentials.
Detailed Summary
00:00:00 In this section, Ed Snowden talks about the importance of prioritizing safety and privacy while pursuing technological missions. He emphasizes the need to consider the threats and challenges faced, both pre-2013 and in the present, and highlights the significance of awareness regarding the exploitative nature of the system and its consequences on individuals. Snowden encourages the audience to think beyond financial gain and legacy, and instead focus on building a network that is secure and accountable.
00:05:00 In this section, Snowden expresses his gratitude for the support systems that have been in place since the Snowden Revelations almost a decade ago. He addresses the U.S. infrastructure bill and the move to sanction open source technology, suggesting that it marks the beginning of a new crypto war. However, he notes that the importance of this development may not be as significant as previous ones, such as the breaking of encryption systems by intelligence agencies. Snowden emphasizes the need to protect ourselves as we advance technology, highlighting the potential risks and challenges ahead.
00:10:00 Michelle Lai discusses the tension between builders and government officials in regards to surveillance and regulation. She questions whether it is possible to shift the conversation to a more collaborative one, where both sides see each other as partners rather than enemies. Snowden responds saying there is a bipartisan consensus in favor of authoritarianism and authoritarian policies. However, he also highlights some encouraging steps, such as the Bitcoin community capturing the membership of Congress.
00:15:00 In this section, Edward Snowden discusses the challenges faced by developers in creating tools like Tornado Cash and the potential consequences of their disruptive impact. He explains that while Tornado Cash may have been legally and constitutionally sound, governments, particularly the United States, may try to exert pressure or send a message to discourage similar projects and protect their traditional economy. Snowden believes that developers should engage in threat modeling and consider the disruptive nature of their tools. He also reflects on the anonymous nature of Bitcoin's creator, Satoshi Nakamoto, and how the most successful project in the space came from someone who disappeared. Snowden suggests that collaboration with government would require a change in government itself, as it is currently not aligned with the principles of a free and open ecosystem. Lastly, Snowden touches on the concerns with current private instant messengers and the need for improved design decisions and features that prioritize privacy and a true private communication tool.
00:20:00 In this section, Edward Snowden highlights the dangers of tying a person's real-world identity to their Signal messenger account. He explains that if someone's phone number is discovered in someone else's contact address book, law enforcement can use it to track their movements, purchases, and even connect it to their cellular plan. This fundamental flaw compromises privacy and anonymity, making it difficult for individuals to live a private or anonymous life. Snowden emphasizes the need for better privacy tools and encourages competition, stating that if someone can do better than Signal, they should and the world will benefit.
When Michelle Lai asked about his dream organization and the kind of tools he would build, Snowden expresses that he wants others to step up in the fight for privacy. He believes that others, including the audience, may have greater expertise in addressing the problem. Snowden believes he has already done enough and does not want his influence to overshadow potentially better voices.
Michelle Lai discusses the trade-off between security and privacy and the timeline mismatch when each is violated. She explains that the effects of security violations are immediate and visible, while privacy violations have slow-burning and less directly attributable. Law enforcement, regulators and politicians are incentivized by their careers to optimize security, since security violations will have immediate impact and fault can be directly attributable. Privacy violation, on the other hand, are very unlikely to damage their careers. How do we manage this conflict? Snowden suggests realigning incentives to prioritize privacy by getting rid of the classification system and allowing governance to happen in plain sight. He believes in “privacy for the individual, transparency for government.” But this is inverted now.
00:30:00 In this section, Edward Snowden discusses how the general public suffers from the consequences of data collection and mass surveillance, while those in positions of institutional authority are not. He believes that if those in power start experiencing the harmful effects of these policies and are shown alternatives, they may be more open to change. Snowden also reflects on the internet of the past, noting that it had a different culture because it was used by a smaller cohort of people who were passionate about being there. Today, with the mandatory nature of internet usage, there is a lack of ownership and responsibility. Snowden believes that moving towards new models of connection that give individuals a sense of ownership can help foster a positive change.
00:35:00 In this section, Edward Snowden talks about the importance of persuading the average user to care about privacy and how it can lead to demanding privacy from application developers, infrastructure providers, and elected officials. He emphasizes that if people don't have to care about privacy, they won't. Snowden also discusses the consequences of not solving privacy issues, comparing it to nuclear arms where there is a Will To Power problem. He mentions that as we move into a more authoritarian world and a fragmented economy, national champions will start flexing their muscles for national benefit, which can have global consequences. Snowden concludes by stating that in order for people to care about privacy, they need to see the consequences and that the desire for solutions will naturally arise as things get worse. Additionally, he explains the difference between privacy and anonymity and why maintaining both is important.
00:40:00 In this section, Edward Snowden emphasizes the importance of control and privacy. He explains that privacy is not just about keeping things to ourselves but having control over our own information and resources. He discusses how privacy is tested when there is an unequal power relationship, where someone in a position of power can coerce or demand access to private information. Snowden suggests that true privacy is achieved by leveraging anonymity and breaking the links between actions, actors, objects, and owners. He further argues that to improve privacy, power differentials need to be flattened, whether it's between individuals in personal relationships or citizens and their governments. Snowden sees potential in the rise of cryptocurrency and web3 technologies for achieving greater privacy and security. Ultimately, he believes that for something to be truly safe, the owner needs to understand it and others should not know it exists.
00:50:00 In this section, Edward Snowden discusses the importance of challenging ideas and having meaningful debates in the context of government and privacy. He highlights the value of arguing extensively and anonymously, just like the Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist papers did. Snowden also emphasizes the significance of identity in gaining trust, sharing his own experience of journalists only believing him after revealing his identity. He suggests that we should have control over our own identities and decide who we share them with, rather than giving that power to governments or corporations. Snowden concludes by stating that while the creation of tools for anonymity is valuable, it is crucial for people to have trust in the information being shared, and that requires a certain level of identity verification.
Watch the whole thing here: